Non-random salt for password hashes

2019-01-01 06:35发布

UPDATE: I recently learned from this question that in the entire discussion below, I (and I am sure others did too) was a bit confusing: What I keep calling a rainbow table, is in fact called a hash table. Rainbow tables are more complex creatures, and are actually a variant of Hellman Hash Chains. Though I believe the answer is still the same (since it doesn't come down to cryptanalysis), some of the discussion might be a bit skewed.
The question: "What are rainbow tables and how are they used?"


Typically, I always recommend using a cryptographically-strong random value as salt, to be used with hash functions (e.g. for passwords), such as to protect against Rainbow Table attacks.

But is it actually cryptographically necessary for the salt to be random? Would any unique value (unique per user, e.g. userId) suffice in this regard? It would in fact prevent using a single Rainbow Table to crack all (or most) passwords in the system...
But does lack of entropy really weaken the cryptographic strength of the hash functions?


Note, I am not asking about why to use salt, how to protect it (it doesn't need to be), using a single constant hash (don't), or what kind of hash function to use.
Just whether salt needs entropy or not.


Thanks all for the answers so far, but I'd like to focus on the areas I'm (a little) less familiar with. Mainly implications for cryptanalysis - I'd appreciate most if anyone has some input from the crypto-mathematical PoV.
Also, if there are additional vectors that hadn't been considered, that's great input too (see @Dave Sherohman point on multiple systems).
Beyond that, if you have any theory, idea or best practice - please back this up either with proof, attack scenario, or empirical evidence. Or even valid considerations for acceptable trade-offs... I'm familiar with Best Practice (capital B capital P) on the subject, I'd like to prove what value this actually provides.


EDIT: Some really good answers here, but I think as @Dave says, it comes down to Rainbow Tables for common user names... and possible less common names too. However, what if my usernames are globally unique? Not necessarily unique for my system, but per each user - e.g. email address.
There would be no incentive to build a RT for a single user (as @Dave emphasized, the salt is not kept secret), and this would still prevent clustering. Only issue would be that I might have the same email and password on a different site - but salt wouldnt prevent that anyway.
So, it comes back down to cryptanalysis - IS the entropy necessary, or not? (My current thinking is it's not necessary from a cryptanalysis point of view, but it is from other practical reasons.)

9条回答
弹指情弦暗扣
2楼-- · 2019-01-01 07:06

I would say that as long as the salt is different for each password, you will probably be ok. The point of the salt, is so that you can't use standard rainbow table to solve every password in the database. So if you apply a different salt to every password (even if it isn't random), the attacker would basically have to compute a new rainbow table for each password, since each password uses a different salt.

Using a salt with more entropy doesn't help a whole lot, because the attacker in this case is assumed to already have the database. Since you need to be able to recreate the hash, you have to already know what the salt is. So you have to store the salt, or the values that make up the salt in your file anyway. In systems like Linux, the method for getting the salt is known, so there is no use in having a secret salt. You have to assume that the attacker who has your hash values, probably knows your salt values as well.

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低头抚发
3楼-- · 2019-01-01 07:06

Entropy is the point of Salt value.

If there is some simple and reproducible "math" behind salt, than it's the same as the salt is not there. Just adding time value should be fine.

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闭嘴吧你
4楼-- · 2019-01-01 07:08

Salt should have as much entropy as possible to ensure that should a given input value be hashed multiple times, the resulting hash value will be, as close as can be achieved, always different.

Using ever-changing salt values with as much entropy as possible in the salt will ensure that the likelihood of hashing (say, password + salt) will produce entirely different hash values.

The less entropy in the salt, the more chance you have of generating the same salt value, as thus the more chance you have of generating the same hash value.

It is the nature of the hash value being "constant" when the input is known and "constant" that allow dictionary attacks or rainbow tables to be so effective. By varying the resulting hash value as much as possible (by using high entropy salt values) ensures that hashing the same input+random-salt will produce many different hash value results, thereby defeating (or at least greatly reducing the effectiveness of) rainbow table attacks.

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